Interview with Midnyte
by EXE-Gency
[January 2000]

Below is the results of an 'unforgiven style' interview between myself and Midnyte. Midnyte is one of a few UK virus programmers and a member of underground group Ultimate Chaos.

Give us a short description of who you are. (Handle, interests, occupation, music, films, location, marital status etc.)

> I'm MidNyte, 23 year old male from Southampton UK. I like to program, do computer graphics and I play guitar in a band (Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Manic Street Preachers, Offspring etc). My favourite film is 'Dazed & Confused', and watch it all the time.

What made you choose your handle?

> I love the night-time, I prefer to be out in the dark than the light, driving or walking. I wanted a handle to reflect that.

Have you ever had any previous identities in the computer underground?

> I use the handle NyteShade as my alternative on IRC.

When did you first get into computers?

> I learned to program when I was about 13, I learned BASIC from a ZX81 manual without access to the ZX81 (it was broken). Eventually I got a ZX Spectrum +2 and then an IBM XT on which I learned PASCAL. After that I got an AMIGA and just played games and mad music with it until I got a decent spec. PC again a few years ago.

What operating system(s) are you currently running?

> Plain old Windows 95 on a Cyrix PII-300 with 32Mb RAM.

How and when did you first discover the computer underground?

> I was always interested in all aspects of H/P/A/C/V and had a copy of Jolly Roger's Anarchist Cookbook from when I was about 13, but I never really got into it until I got internet access with my first decent PC. I was searching for viruses after being infected with One Half and wanting to know more about it. I stumbled across pages and pages of tutorials, and haven't looked back since.

How did you first get into virus programming?

> I was infected by One Half at work and I was intrigued because I had no idea of what a virus was really all about. I went off looking for information on it as soon as I had internet access and found more information than I'd though possible.. tutorials, programs that would make 100's of viruses, source code and compilers etc. I was interested because there was always something new to learn.

Do you have an interest in the other components of the computer underground? (hack/phreak/warez etc.)

> Yep, all of the above. Although I can't do anything in those fields, I do like to read about it and keep up with what's going on, phreaking especially. I was into phreaking before I was into viruses, right back before I had a decent PC.

Do you consider yourself to be a criminal?

> No. I would never spread my viruses, I never give them to anyone I don't trust so they are only ever a threat to my own computer (not even much of a threat). If I want to destroy my computer with a hammer, I can, so exposing it to a virus is also up to me, in my opinion, as long as I don't pass around executable files which are infected.

Do the recent changes to virus writing law worry you?

> Yes, but mainly because it is too restricting, it would be too easy for the establishment to charge you with intent to spread viruses when you have no such desire. Just keeping a collection of viruses on an internet capable computer could possibly be seen as intent to spread. I've not written any viruses since the change in the law (due to time), and I never have or will spread viruses. I don't think there is anything wrong with writing viruses in the way I do, just to challenge my programming skills.

Do your friends/family/colleagues know about your interest in the computer underground?

> A few do, but they don't really understand about viruses or the various scenes.

What are your opinions on virii with destructive payloads?

> I think they serve to back up the opinions of the people who think that all virus writing is evil, which is not right in my opinion. I think it's a way to get attention for a virus, and that people who can't code an impressive virus use it to get a reaction from the public. I see it as a sign of admitting that your virus isn't very good, 'This is crap, but if I put this in people will take notice' kind of thing.

How did you get involved with the virus group Ultimate Chaos?

> Whilst I was getting started with viruses, I spent a lot of time talking to Rhape79 (the founder) who is also in the UK. When it came to joining a group, UC were the obvious choice.

How many people are in the Ultimate Chaos group?

> At he time of writing (03/01/2000), eleven.

Do Ultimate Chaos concern themselves with virus programming only?

> We used to be in alliance with 3rd World Domination (3WD), a H/P/A group, but parted company quite a while ago. We were then mainly virus orientated, but are now making the move to security. We are changing name to Ultimate Chaos Security International (UCSI).

Have you been a member of any other groups?

> I was a member of Invaders for all of 3 weeks. It was when I had only occasional internet access and before I could write a virus. I joined the group to be the webmaster and Buz agreed to help teach me in return. Unfortunately, three weeks after I joined I lost my access completely for around six months and when I was around again Invaders was disbanded.

Why did you start learning Assembly? Was it because you wanted to write viruses or could you already code in ASM?

> I'd always wanted to learn assembly, but until I saw a virus source code explained in a tutorial I had no idea where to start. Now I can do a few things in assembly, I use it for other stuff too, not just virus-orientated material.

What other languages can you program in?

> BASIC (who can't?), PASCAL and AMOS (what I can remember of it, not much)

What do you think of viruses written in languages other that assembly?

> I think that's fine if it's your thing, but it's not mine. I like the rigidity of assembly language, being able to have a program self-modify with ease. Macro viruses have never interested me though.

What groups do you value most highly?

> I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I admire the way that the Codebreakers will tackle problems like lack of security by bringing it into the publics view, even though the only way they can do that is with the scare tactics of viruses. Take Caligula for example, which stole PGP secret keys and mailed them back to the codebreakers; the security of PGP was flawed because people had secret keys lying around unsecure, and the fact that a virus could take advantage of that made people take notice and sort out their security.

Which individual programmers do you value most highly?

> Anyone who pushes the boundries or tries something new.

What zines do you read regularly?

> Every one I can!

What do you think of the virus scene? (Both in general and in the UK.)

> I think it's getting more attention than before, which is in turn attracting more of the same old debate. There's not much willingness among the public to actually find out why people would want to write viruses in the first place, which can only lead to conflict. The public's stubborness is only daring people to do their worst, in my opinion. For example, you get people who know nothing about viruses coming onto alt.com.virus and saying all virus writers are evil and should be strung up. I think that just makes virus writers less likely to care about the public, ie, more likely to release a virus into the wild. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but you have to understand what you're talking about first.

How has the underground scene changed since you first entered?

> I don't think it has much, I think it's just grown. The growth does seem to be concentrated in the idiot part of the VX population though :(

What do you think the future of virus writing holds?

> I think it will continue as before, tit for tat with the anti-virus industry, becoming more and more complex just to keep the same level of functionality whilst still being undetected.

Do you believe in a 'perfect virus'? And if so describe it.

> I think a perfect virus would only have to be perfect in respect to remaining undetectable with a normal algorithm. That way no AV program would be good enough to use against it unless it was huge and slow. The viruses best weapon against an AV program in my opinion is simply slowing it down. That way the user does the dirty work of disabling the AV because they can't be bothered to use it as much.

What advice would you give to newbies entering the virus scene?

> Read as many tutorials as you can! (VDAT is the best way to do this, get it from http://www.ultimatechaos.com). Try not to learn from just one, read a few on the same subject first, then follow the one that seamed the clearest. If you don't follow anything in one, check it out in another. Don't go jumping the gun, try each successive step even if you think you don't need to, there's always something that doesn't quite work how you think it would. (The steps I follow are: COM overwriter, COM appender, Encrypted COM appender, EXE appender, Encrypted EXE appender, etc) Finally, don't be afraid to ask for help in Undernet's #virus channel, what can you lose?

Anything you would like to add?

> Virus-Authors: Don't be happy with just encrypting with XOR, think of something better! XOR is not much better than nothing at all these days. It hides your text from a text viewer but it's so easy to see through it's not much use against anything else. I have tutorials on my site (and in VDAT) about more advanced encryption methods.

Any greets?

> To everyone I know. (It's not a cop-out, I really mean it :)

Any plugs? (Homepage, email address etc.)

> My Homepage: http://members.tripod.co.uk/midnyte2 | http://surf.to/midnyte | http://www.ultimatechaos.org/midnyte (they all lead to the same place)
> My Email: midnyte01@excite.com | midnyte.uc@virgin.net (for attatchments)
> My Graphics Homepage (Non-VX): http://members.tripod.co.uk/never-redemption