Interview with Rhape79
by EXE-Gency
[March 2000]

Below is the results of an 'unforgiven style' interview between myself and Rhape79. Rhape79 is one of a few UK virus programmers and a member of underground group Ultimate Chaos and writer of the excellent Final Chaos zine.

Give us a short description of who you are. (Handle, interests, occupation, music, films, location, marital status etc.)

> You want all that in a short description? Hmm, well here goes - My handle is Rhape79 and Imma 20 year old guy who was born and breed in Wiltshire. I have an interest in computer viruses, malware and security and computers in general. Other interests include girls, sex and music. My occupation, hmm, currently lower retail management. My tastes in music are somewhat varied ranging from classical through pop, garage, dance to heavy metal and many other types although my favourite class of music would have to be classic rock. As fer films, again I'm easily pleased as I enjoy a good science-fiction, romance, action, whatever - as long as it has a good plot. My location? Currently in the midlands of the United Kingdom. As fer marital status all I can boost at the moment is a steady relationship but no wife yet.

What made you choose your handle?

> It's actually an official identification number given to me at birth (yes, this does mean the right kinda authoriaties could track me down in under a minute)...

Have you ever had any previous identities in the computer underground?

> Yup, originally I used "Stalker" but after coming online I discovered it was a fairly widely used nickname so I had to switch to something more unique, and I'm actually glad I've left that nick behind.

When did you first get into computers?

> When I was about 7 or 8 - I had a few of those Amstrad CPC 464's - ya know the one's wif the tape drives that boosted an incredable 64k RAM memory with no such thing as a hard drive.

What operating system(s) are you currently running?

> Windows 95 SR2.5 (version C) on 3 PCs and a laptop, DOS 2.something on a laptop, and Caldera OpenLinux 1.2 on two other PCs.

How and when did you first discover the computer underground?

> Hmm, dunno to be honest - I don't think I ever really discovered it, it was more a day by day event where everyday online you'd play around and learn things and explore a little further and making new friends... Then one day you look back and see that you're no longer one of the innocent bystanders of the cyber-world (fer want of a better word) but rather you've found your way into a home wif like minded people who are merely refered to as the computer underground. To be honest there really is nothing very underground about the VX movement these days, at least, not from where I'm sitting.

How did you first get into virus programming?

> Uhhh... By a facination wif self-relicating and self-maintaining code - this then lead to me creating theories about the possibility of worm style programs, which I then implimented successfully using a HLL and (accidently) the college LAN which got hit by one of my creations.. but that's another story.

Do you have an interest in the other components of the computer underground? (hack/phreak/warez etc.)

> Hacking to a certain extent, I mean really this depends upon how you define hacking. Phreaking I've had an interest in, although never an active participation. Warez have never interested me at all - 'cept maybe fer a week or two when I was doing a little research on the suitablilty of warez servers to help in the advancement of viruses (I was also partly looking at software protection at this time too).

Do you consider yourself to be a criminal?

> Only to myself.

Do the recent changes to virus writing law worry you?

> I've yet to see these new laws, but from what I've heard they're nothing too brillant.

> If I want to code a virus, worm or any other form of malware I will still do so. I have only ever released one piece of code out into the public domain - and that worm (JULIET.MRC II (B) mIRC Worm) was modified before it was compiled so that it would never survive past a 2nd generation, this was to ensure it didn't go wild spread as it's armouring and stealth are fairly high fer a mIRC worm.

Do your friends/family/colleagues know about your interest in the computer underground?

> Yup. My friends know, my family know but don't really understand it, colleagues at (my current) work place don't know - although were I worked before as a computer technician they knew and were quite happy about it as long as I didn't infect and PCs there. My girlfriend also knows - so I don't really hide it.

What are your opinions on virii with destructive payloads?

> After a fair bit of consideration over the last few years I can quite honestly say that I don't mind viruses wif destructive payloads as they can be as interesting and as creative as non-destructive payloads - obviously in a different way.

How did you get involved with the virus group Ultimate Chaos?

> Gee, lemme think... Ahh yeah I remember - I founded the group.

How many people are in the Ultimate Chaos group?

> Currently there are 11 people employed within the Ultimate Chaos group, although this number has varied a fair bit during the life-span of the group since it was founded.

Do Ultimate Chaos concern themselves with virus programming only?

> No, as of late we've been making the move over to more security related topics and taking a lesser active role in the VX scene - especially now that we've done the release of Final Chaos (although there is an update planned).

Have you been a member of any other groups?

> Hmm... No. I did have a desire to join the Codebreakers team or 29A when I started to have a more active role in the VX scene, however it turned out I was destined to lead and Ultimate Chaos was born and grew up alongside them.

Why did you start learning to program? Was it because you wanted to write computer viruses.

> heheh, I started to learn to program because I wanted the computer (Amstrad CPC 464) to do what I wanted it to do and I wanted to be able to create the magic that the software writers had done. Computer viruses came after a long study in the theory of and implentation of computer worms, which as I said above, was born out of the dream of a self-maintaining/surviving/replicating program.

What other languages can you program in?

> Turbo Pascal 7.0, mIRC Script, HTML, Amstrad BASIC. I have the ability to take many 4GLs and HLLs and modify existing code as well so JavaScript and VBScript etc aren't too much of a problem either..

What do you think of viruses written in languages other that assembly?

> I think almost every language has the potential to be used in a manner that would support reproduction and be self-maintaining (which is a lot more than can be said fer almost every human given the most basic of tools in a hostile environment) and I think that all langauges have their strong points and their weak points. As the age old arguement goes about Visual Basic viruses - sure they can be done, but the code will be big and the systems would require VB DLL files in order to even run, however if this is your environment they may prove more effective than the convential ASM or even Win32ASM viruses.

What groups do you value most highly?

> Hmm... I can't answer this question on the basis that the groups as a whole each have their unique areas of expertise and experence and to try and face these values off against each other would give me a headache that I'm not in the mood to tolorate at this time. If the group is made of members who are all knowledgable in their specialist fields, who can work quickly and effectively in a team, who can produce results at the end of a project working together (be it the entire group or just a selection of members from within the group) then they are a group who I think can be valued highly.

Which individual programmers to you value most highly?

> They would have to be the ones who are reliable, who are always ready fer a challenge, who can work in a team as well as on their own, who respect others and who earn the respect of others.

What zines do you read regularly?

> Ahhh, finally - an easy question: 29A, Codebreakers, Xine, and any other zines that are released. Although to say I read them regularly depends how you define regularly - these zines are usually 6-monthly at best.

What do you think of the virus scene? (Both in general and in the UK.)

> Ok, firstly in general - I currently think there are a lot of new and inexperenced coders out there who had yet to take a definate direction. There is the usual splattering of lamers floating around, obviously this kinda jumped a little around Christmas/New year as some kids got new PCs and wanted to be the next Dark Avenger of the VX scene. The more experence coders seem to be more relaxed at the moment, mainly getting back into their lives, although some will return and continue to expand their knowledge and assist in the progress of the VX scene.
> In the UK - Well, I guess the best I can say here is that it is extremely limited, although that's not to say there are not a lot of VXers in the UK, just that most of them keep their heads down and are generally unconnected from the mainstream of VXers that live thoughout the world.

How has the underground scene changed since you first entered?

> Hmm.. There have been a lot of changes, mostly minor ones to the scene since I first entered years ago. I'd say the first things that come into mind are number of antiviruses bearing in mind that DrSolomons, ThunderByte and MSAV no longer exist at least. There doesn't appear to be the drive that was once so strong within the mainstream, this could be down to the older members moving on or merely quietening down fer a while. The other major points I'd have to say is the shift in power between groups where Codebreakers and 29A are now the leading names over teams such as VLAD, Phalcom/SKISM and NuKE, and the array of files that can be infected has grown so that one new breeds of viruses such as mIRC, VBS, VBA and HTML can survive and spread.

What do you think the future of virus writing holds?

> More advancement of techniques, maybe more of an underground position where you'll not find members from different teams mixing and chatting together in registered channels, but more likely working within their teams with little or no outside contact. Personally I see the future of the VX scene becoming more dog eat dog and using only established methods of communication rather than staying open to everyone - that is if the intelligence community doesn't back off and leave us alone.

Do you believe in a 'perfect virus'? And if so describe it.

> I'd have to echo what JS.Bach. said to me once in an interview:

> "With my limited knowledge, i'd have to say religion is the 'perfect' virus. It is a mind virus, but you did not ask about computer viruses only :*)
> Next, on my list of 'perfect' viruses comes music. In particular, I am constantly 'infected' by the music of Johann Sebastian Bach."

> After all, anything is possible, it's just a matter of time.

What advice would you give to newbies entering the virus scene?

> Go home.

What language should a newbie learn if he wants to start writing viruses?

> None, he should first write a paper on the theory of self-replication and arguements for and against this, including moral and ethical arguements, finishing off with an investigation into artifical intelligence and why no virus can justify this as a reason to survive. Then, once he/she has done that, I'd tell 'em to pick any language they choose, learn it, and once they've done that - if they still want to write a virus - they won't need any guidance from anyone.

Anything you would like to add?

> Do I get paid fer answering this?
> But seriously, like the other underground scenes, virus writing/collecting/distributing is not without it's own bad press.
> Nothing I say is official, legally binding, or interesting.

Any greets?

> To all the VXers past and present and to anyone who has really read what I've said and understood it.

Any plugs? (Homepage, email address etc.)

> Hmm.. We have a few domains:
> http://www.ultimatechaos.org
> http://www.ultimatechaos.co.uk
> http://www.ultimatechaos.org.uk
> http://www.ultimatechaos-security.co.uk
> Feel free to contact me personally at rhape79@ultimatechaos.org wif any queries, comments or suggestions.