Interview with Gothmog
by Cicatrix
[August 1997]

How did you start out in computers?

Well, I've been using computers since the Apple II came out, way back in the day... Back then, it was basically for games, etc. but I got my first experience with the "underground" scene (if you could call it that, back then it really was more mainstream -- if you were using a computer in the first place, you were somewhat a hacker, in the old sense of the word) back in '85 or '86, I'd say, when I ran into a bunch of pirated games for the Apple - Pac Man, I remember, was "KRACKED BY OZZY" and Conan was released by the Pacific Pirates Guild... Old school, to the max... Anyway, it was back then I first experimented with programming (aside from BASIC, we all did that :) in the form of cracking games... First, it was just hex-editing them, but then I became a bit more adventurous, applying old versions of patches to new versions of games, changing offsets, etc.... I never did anything all that complex, but it was a basis for the rest of my computer knowledge. I started out, on the Apple, just about as low-level as you could go, learned hex codes and pieced together not quite a knowledge of, but a recognition of how machine language worked... and altogether got a pretty good foundation to base myself on.

How and when did you start out in the virus scene?

Well, I had heard about viruses back on the Apple, heard about boot sector infectors for the Apple and for the Amiga, but had never seen one... I had, surprisingly enough, found a copy of Ralf Burger's book in my local library, and had learned about the old PC viruses, Vienna and such... My first contact with viruses on the PC came with the board scene (I miss it, don't we all...)-- some kid had maybe 20, 25 viruses on his board, which me and a bunch of friends downloaded (I didn't have a PC back then, I got mine in '93, this was back in '90 or '91 I'd say) and "tested" out on our school computer. ("Hey Neil, I dare you to hit enter and run ANTHRAX.COM" "<Click>" "Fuck, we didn't mean it... Run!") You know the drill...
Anyway, my first real experience with viruses came with the dawn of the hacker scene on the internet, I found some site with a zip of a few hundred files, executables and source codes, and fooled around with them... Managed to wipe some of my files by accidently running them, you know. Anyway, I eventually figured out how to use TASM and TLINK from reading the source code files I got, and it just went from there...

Have you written viruses? If so which would you like to take credit for?

Hmmm... Let's see. I'll take credit for 8Fish, Ahav, Airwalker, Envader, Fyodor, Gobot, Gremlin, Jacov, Leprosy.Jobo, Ringworm, Ymir, and a few assorted HLLO's. Others, you'll just have to guess...

How do you name your viruses?

With whatever pops into my head. Sometimes, I think of a name and write the virus for it, other times I write the virus first. But I find it hard to complete a virus when it's still nameless; I find a certain ambiguity of direction that only the virus's name, and thus character, can resolve.

Which programming languages do you know?

Basic, Asm, Pascal, Turbo Pascal, Visual Basic, WordBasic, and a bit of C...

What programming language do you like using the most?

Depends on what... For general coding purposes, I usually use TP, as I'm very experienced with it and can usually whip out a program fastest in it... For viruses, definitely asm, nothing else cuts it...

Are you a member of a VX group?

Not currently...

Which AV software do you like/respect the most? Which the least?

Well, overall I like (and use) F-Prot, TBAV, and AVP, all for different reasons. For AVP, it's the heuristics and the detection. (Interface sucks, though.) For TBAV, it's the heuristics (flags and all), as many less-than-intelligent programmers will neglect to check if their program gets any flags at all... It's a quick testing routine, nothing more really... And for F-Prot, it's the interface, detection level, and naming scheme... I respect Dr. Solomon's program and AVP for quick detection/removal of new viruses. And I dislike McAffee and Norton, for two quick examples, for shitty code/detection/interface/removal /false alarm rates and for their scissor-hold on the industry, advertising their substandard products too damn persistantly.

What are your goals (VX wise)?

Nothing specifically, each virus I have written has been written simply to see if I could write it... A programming excersise, more or less...

What is your view on the continuous 'war' between VX and AV.

Right now, there is no real war; we're all pretty much on friendly terms. All the really good coders (ex-vlad, ir/g, etc...) are quite mature and don't go for the petty bickering of the past... The only people I see who feel there is a war are the newbies, the "warez-d00dz" of the virus scene, those who don't really know any better...

Where did you get you handle? What does it mean?

Alternately, from some shitty Tolkien book I can't remember or from an old-school CRPG called Dungeon Master... Gothmog's been my handle since '87, '88 I'd say, so it's here to stay... No real reason to change it now.

What is your view on Virus Creation software (eg. VCL, PS-MPC etc.)?

A good _introduction_ to the virus world. True, they have in the past been a tool for the lame, but even the lame learn eventually...

What is your view on macro viruses vs. assembly or HLL viruses?

A nuisance, nothing more... I haven't really followed the macro virus progression, but I understand there's a fuckload of them now... Again, they're a good starting point; perhaps now, they may be a better starting point, at least from the perspective of real-world practicality, than the simple com infector. (when was the last time you ran an application (not a dos utility mind you, a true application--game or word processor, say) that used com files?) Anyway, they're an easy introduction to the world of real coding, and hopefully all those macro virus programmers out there will take their first steps into that great world.

Have you ever confirmed one of your viruses 'in-the-wild'?

Not as such, though a few have gotten fairly good UseNet exposure.

Which VX E-zine do you like to most? Which the least?

Truthfully, I haven't kept up, but I like VLAD of all the recent ones for style and information. The least? I dunno, anything written with no true intelligence or insight behind it.

Which individual or what group do you like/respect in the VX world?

I'd have to say the late group VLAD; who else could make the New York Times? Again, style, intelligence, and insight... VLAD had them all.

In the AV world?

Definitely Dr. Alan Solomon, for one; few others show as much dedication as he does to his customers' needs; most of the other av'ers who make regular appearances on a.c.v gain my respect as well, at least those who are honest and helpful to those in need.

Which individual or what group do you like/respect outside the VX or the AV world?

I dunno, anyone who still remembers the good old days, when every computer user knew exactly what he was doing; when every comupter user was a hacker at heart. And I especially respect anyone who still is.

What is your view on destructive payloads in viruses?

To those who feel they must include destructive routines in their code, I say this: Why must you build only to destroy? To do that is to act like the outsider, when you can, and will be welcomed and respected by those who see the value and truth that is inherent in the world of the computer.

Do you think there is such a thing as a 'good' virus?

Perhaps, perhaps not; 'good' touches on morality, a tricky subject indeed. There is such a thing as a non-malignant virus, one that causes no harm -- that is for sure.

What do you do in 'real' life?

"Student", I suppose, would best describe my current situation... As for what I do, it changes every day... :)

Do people outside the VX scene know what you do (parents, girlfriend etc.)?

Parents, no. Girlfriend, yes. Though she might as well be considered part of the scene, at least in the know.

Do you do other computer stuff outside VX (Hacking, phreaking, warez etc.)?

I've experimented with hacking, phreaking, cracking, whatever... I know how, but they usually don't inspire me towards action. More sort of background knowledge, I can call on the skills if I need them. I was into warez for a while, but you know how it is... I'll still browse the newsgroups if I need to find a program, but that's about it.

Should viruses be illegal? Is there a difference between creation and spreading?

Intentionally spreading a virus to someone's computer should be illegal, but not, say, posting it to usenet or to someone's ftp server. Like, if someone brings a disk with a virus on it to some big company's computer, sits down, puts the disk in, and _runs_ the virus, that should be illegal, and probably already is. But just posting viruses to usenet or ftp or web sites shouldn't. Basically, intentional, malignant attempts to destroy data are wrong, and should be illegal, but that's about it. (I'm not talking like a felony or anything, maybe like a small fine or something unless millions of dollars are really lost or for repeated offenses)

Describe the perfect virus.

Why, simply, one that cannot be detected nor removed, and one that spreads to anything; mac, ibm, unix; com, exe, doc, maybe even text files.

What is your view on Windows (95)

About Win95, I don't care what anyone says, it's better than Windows 3.1. Anyone who disagrees with that is pretty damn stupid.

What is your advice for people just starting out?

Read all the text files you can find, experiment with other source code files, learn how to assemble them. Maybe read a book, or something... Follow a tutorial, starting from the simplest virus there is. (Try Ratboy's, though it's shitty as hell for real virus programming, it's easy to understand for beginners.) Buy a book on assembly language. Ask questions. And above all else, stick with it.

Where can you be reached if at all?

If you need to find me, you will.

What part of the world do you come from?

The United States, CT to be exact.

What future releases are you planning?

Nothing planned, just whatever happens to pop into my head or inspire me; that's how I write everything.

Are you considering joining a VX group? If yes, which one?

Nope...

Any follow-ons on DREG?

Perhaps, though I lost the original source code due to a complete HD melt-down. (And I thought Western Digital Caviar's were supposed to be good...) We'll see...