Interview with Horny Toad
by Cicatrix
[November 1997]

How did you start out in computers?

I started out with an Apple II clone back in 1982. The big thing back then was pirated software. I had hundreds of disks of games and all sorts of shit. As far as programming back in those days, all I did was BASIC and some graphics shit called LOGO. I ended up buying a second Apple II clone (don't ask me why). I remember how great it felt buying my first 128k memory expansion cards for the Apple... fuck, 128k? Hell, that computer couldn't even hold some of the smallest programs that I write today. I started online stuff about a year later when I bought an Epson CP-20 Acoustic Coupler 300 baud modem. My friends and I mostly hacked BBS's back then and also fucked with Telenet to gain access to overseas stuff. After the Apples, I moved on to the Mac Plus, what a leap! Didn't do much of anything with the Mac, mostly just a college term paper machine. I then got into PC's, where I have stayed ever since.

How and when did you start out in the virus scene?

My first exposure to virii was back in 1985. My computer teacher Steve was a software designer and virus writer. He used to show me the virii that he would create, but like a stupid shit head that I was, I didn't pay attention. Fuck. If I could only go back in time and start earlier with virii...

Have you written viruses? If so which would you like to take credit for?

I write a lot of virii, but I have jumped into research and development for a while. There are so many copycats out there and not enough new ideas. As for the ones that I will take credit for... Keep reading the Codebreakers mag and you will see the stuff that I have coded.

How do you name your viruses?

Hell, it depends on what type of mood that I am in, what type of music that I am listening to, what type of day I just had... Mainly something to do with my handle - Horny Toad.

Which programming languages do you know?

Assembly, Visual Basic, C and C++, Bourne Shell

What programming language do you like using the most?

Assembly

Are you a member of a VX group?

Yes, I am the editor of the Codebreakers magazine.

Which AV software do you like/respect the most? Which the least?

Hell of a question... I use a combination of several AV programs, I don't want to plug one in general. The problem is that we keep writing better anti-AV stuff everyday, that you can't just use one detection program and think that your computer is clean. If you tell me that you use only "Joe-Blows AV program", I will give you a list of 50+ virii people have written to specifically exploit weaknesses in "Joe-Blows AV program". Diversify your defenses. Use different programs, especially if you are into high-risk activities.

What are your goals (VX wise)?

My main goals in the virus scene are to teach and research&developement. R&D should be the number one priority of virus writers. With the advent of new more advanced AV programs and more sophisticated operating systems, we need very enthusiastic researchers to invent new techniques in the virus field.

What is your view on the continuous 'war' between VX and AV.

Just that it will remain continuous. Actually, I could care less about the AV community, they have their job and I have mine. Don't be mistaken about AV people. Their future is based on the fact that virii will always be around. Do I want to make their lives a living hell? Yeah, I guess so, that would be proof of my own successes in virus writing.

Where did you get you handle? What does it mean?

Actually, I can't really elaborate on when and where I got it. Another group of hackers/virus writers kinda gave it to me.

What is your view on Virus Creation software (eg. VCL, PS-MPC etc.)?

For the grand answer and long-winded narrative on this subject, read the first edition of the Codebreakers mag. In a nutshell, I find them to be useful tools if put in the correct perspective. If you plan on using Virus Creation software, remember that, just because you entered the parameters for the VC program, the created virus code is not actually yours. Use it to learn from. Once you get to an advanced level of programming, try writing a virus creation program. Writing a truly effective VC program is a challenge.

What is your view on macro viruses vs. assembly or HLL viruses?

I don't particularly like to code macro virii. I am not criticizing those who like macro virii. I encourage all types of virii. Exploit and use the knowledge that you have. If you have a hard-on for PASCAL, and can write virii in PASCAL, by all means do it. I don't really care for all of the sensationalism that has surrounded macro virii, but if you want to code them, go right ahead! Just try to be creative and innovative in whatever it is you do.

Have you ever confirmed one of your viruses 'in-the-wild'?

A number of my virii have been around, but never made it to the infamous 'in-the-wild' list...not yet!

Which VX E-zine do you like to most? Which the least?

Of course Codebreakers mag rules!

I think that VLAD is pretty awesome, good graphics and articles. 29A is great. There really aren't any zines that I particularly dislike, some just need a little more work than others.

Which individual or what group do you like/respect in the VX world?

I don't know... Most groups come and go. I like VLAD for some of the new research they have done, but most of there stuff was left incomplete. I liked Phalcon-Skism for their ground-breaking virus work way back when. When I was first learning how to code virii, I liked Immortal Riot and Nuke. I guess that was back in my more destructive days. I see the trend now for more sophisticated groups with a definitive purpose - this is the reason why I think Codebreakers is such a kick-ass group. We are a tight group of mature virus writers with a definite goal.

In the AV world?

None. They're all slimy bastards. I really hate Fred Cohen (AV). I can't believe that they actually pay him money for the crap that he puts out.

Which individual or what group do you like/respect outside the VX or the AV world?

Respect? Hard to say. Porn Stars.

What is your view on destructive payloads in viruses?

Hey, it's an aspect of virus writing that some people enjoy. I try not to write anything incredibly destructive, but hell, most of the AV community and the world in general view all virii as destructive.

Do you think there is such a thing as a 'good' virus?

Quality speaking, yes. Hard question to answer. 'Good' is relative to who you are asking.

What do you do in 'real' life?

Unix SA and general systems upkeep (boring shit)

Do people outside the VX scene know what you do (parents, girlfriend etc.)?

Some of them know, I can't say they're too happy about my life in the virus world...oh well.

Do you do other computer stuff outside VX (Hacking, phreaking, warez etc.)?

I do a little hacking, but that's about it. General web stuff.

Should viruses be illegal? Is there a difference between creation and spreading?

NO! I think that they should fall under the freedom of speech shit. It's not virii that are the problem, its lamers who fuck things up for the rest of us by only using virii for their destructive capabilities.

Describe the perfect virus.

Undetectable, small, fast, adapts to the environment that it is in and reproduces like a motherfucker.

What is your view on Windows (95)?

Windows 95/98 is a challenging platform for infections. I am currently working on 32-bit virii. The AV community is breathing a sigh of relief because of the successes that they are having in the inherent OS defenses... just you guys wait!!

What is your advice for people just starting out?

Basically, don't get discouraged. Virus writing is exciting and very challenging. Try to read as much stuff as you can get your hands on about virii. Don't start out with the most complicated techniques. Begin with the basics and work up. Read the Codebreakers zines!

Where can you be reached if at all?

You can get in touch with me through the Codebreakers.

Any greets?

All the members of the Codebreakers. Lord Shade. Dungeon Master. Worm. Mrs. Horny Toad and my tadpoles. All of you are great.

Any other comments?

Read the Codebreakers zines!
Research you ass off!
Virus writing is the most kick ass hobby in the world. I wish that I could just quit my current job and write virii for a living.

Short responses to the following names or words:

    - Dark Avenger        -way back when...an awesome coder
    - Dark Angel          -the Godfather of the virus community
    - Sarah Gordon        -blahhh
    - Fridrik Skulason    -blahhh
    - Alan Solomon        -shitty scanner
    - WordBasic/VBA       -viable virus language, but not for me
    - VDAT                -absolutley incredible source of info!!
    - VSUM                -don't use it, don't trust it
    - Assembler           -the mother of all virus writing languages
    - NuKE                -cool group
    - Phalcon Skism       -legendary
    - VLAD                -their research was good
    - Codebreakers        -Simply the best!
    - Trident             -don't use it
    - Polymorphic         -great when it works
    - Stealth             -bomber
    - I hate......        -lamerz
    - I love......        -the female body
    - Internet            -addicted to it
    - IRC                 -has it's uses
    - Sex                 -whats my handle?  Enough said.
    - World War 3         -don't have time for it right now

How did you get into Codebreakers?

I started out in the Power Empire Virus Writing Faction. Basically, the organization of the PE began to fall apart, so a number of us broke away and formed the Codebreakers.

Our goals for the Codebreakers:

- Teach virus writing.
- Attract into our group the top virus minds in the world.
- Discover new coding techniques.
- Set records in the virus world.
- Work on any underground subject (hacking,pheaking,...)

How is Codebreakers organized?

SPo0ky is the leader and Arsonic is the co-leader. The rest of us all have different functions within the group. The great thing about the Codebreakers is that we are a small tight group. We are able to be very selective on who we bring in to the group. There are no personality problems within the group even though our members are from all over the world.

What part of the world are you from?

All over.

Will you release any tutorials or virus creators?

The Codebreakers zine acts as both a tutorial and general virus/hacking zine. We plan to do it all - VCL's, tutorials, new techniques, new virii... You name it, we plan to do it.

What is in your future and the future of Codebreakers?

My future is to continue working in the Codebreakers as a teacher and developer. I love working with and studying virii. The beauty about computers is that you can never know everything. I will just continue on increasing my knowledge the best I can.

Codebreakers:

Our group is only going to get bigger and better. We are currently recruiting so much talent, we can only become stronger.

Will Codebreakers increase the number of members?

Yes! We are always looking for new members. If you have something to offer the group and are willing to work hard, go to the Codebreakers site and submit an application. We are not accepting everyone, but the select few that we feel can contribute to the collective.

Will Codebreakers go into other scenes except VX? (hacking, etc.)

We will be involved in all of the 'scenes'. Keep reading our zines and you will see the extent of our knowledge. We will constantly be branching out and diversifying our tutorials and articles. Keep tuned in.